From a letter.
I had a question. I dictated this in the car while driving, and I’m afraid it ran away with me. My real question is immediately below. All the background and why I’m wondering it follows.
I was wondering how plausible you thought it might be to hypothesize that the archetypes are themselves psychological representations of an innate biological instantiation or instinct.
My wife is currently reading a book about ending patriarchy. And I was trying to lay my finger on what exactly it was about the book that bothered me. And to some degree it seemed clear that what was troubling me was feeling of misidentification. I didn’t really have a problem with the actual facts or data the book presented. In fact I would agree wholeheartedly with their validity and reality. But I was troubled by a feeling that something about me or about men, separate from the facts, was being iconically misrepresented.
So I was thinking about the ways that you have pointed out that degenerative patriarchy is often represented, such as the blind king and the predatory brother, and I also think there is a third archetype of undeveloped immaturity or adolescence, a pre-pubescent masculinity that remains perpetually a benign child and never develops those masculine attributes into any real fulfillment.
And I was theorizing as to how much of what we do when we cogitate is just us making the case for identification of a particular set of facts or events or people with a particular degenerative archetype, so that we fundamentally know what we are dealing with and what to do about it. And perhaps we each have both a primary archetypal fear and a primary archetypal ideal. And maybe my problem with the book wasn’t the facts as such, but rather that they were being used to characterize patriarchy itself, the representation of the masculine in society, as being identical with the threat of archetypal predatory masculinity, and also that the ideal archetypal goal of transformation it presented was toward a non-threatening pre-pubescent masculinity.
Males as children are very different creatures representationally to women than mature, post-pubescent men. And it worried me that the idealized vision of the book seemed to be this more neutered and controllable and undeveloped less-specified vision of manhood.
As someone who grew up around confident and powerful women, it was also hard for me to swallow the picture of women as merely captive and victimized children, rather than active agents and contributors walking their own path . Not that women haven’t been in that position or haven’t been forced into that position by men throughout history. But rather, I feel that the narrative that that archetypal representation represents the totality of female experience and the totality of male instantiation, is wrong. And the transformational ideals I see being put forward as an alternative are not themselves the most mature and heroic conceptions of femininity or masculinity.
So I was wondering why it is so easy for women to slip into or want to slip into this kind of archetypal simplification and identification. Not that I am singling women out, it is obvious to me that all humans do this. I was just concerned with this one particular case, when it comes to identifying men and their appropriate or inappropriate archetypal forms.
There seems to be a pre-made slot in the mind that we are pre-prepared to structure other people into. And I wondered if they could be identified with or connected to the persistent experience of phenomena, including threats from other organisms that we co-evolved with. And perhaps these innate reactions became part of our necessary mental language for how we structure our understanding of the world. Man as beast, man as wolf, man as predator, man as ravening lion, man as werewolf. The hungry devourer to whom you are prey. Do we have an innate circuit connected to such fears?
Wolves are organized, social, and intelligent and live virtually everywhere. They are very similar to us, and they are apex predators with their own social structure that can be used to turn us into prey. So there you have near-universal potential for exposure among humans, as well as the presence of something similar to ourselves, something familiar in appearance, but in a predatory form. I also notice that the Egyptian god Set has a distinctly canine aspect.
Do we also not use other innate clues and traits to allow us to identify infants and children, and don’t those traits carry innate representational power for organizing our attitude and actions toward the objects of those representations? Is it possible that some of our more sophisticated representations of negative humanity are built upon combining the idea of a person with the idea of another organism, a threat or an asset (but particularly threats with whom we have co-evolved and value assets with whom we have evolved) much as the heads of animals are transposed onto the bodies of the Egyptian gods? The idea of the wolf integrated with the idea of a man, the idea a snake combined with the idea of a man (perhaps into something like a vampire, a more hidden and subtle type of dangerous predator who bites and infects you with poison).
Does the innate fear of the parasite have an archetypal human expression? And do we innately look for these things in humanity around us, for the connection to and identification with the innate fears that structured the world of threats around us in ages past? Is the idea of a disease-ridden and corrupted body, the predator that is age and pathological sickness or infirmity, transposed onto the head of man in the archetype of the blind king?
How much of the struggle of society and what goes on in communication and representation and identification really a matter of connecting the present circumstances to innate archetypal representations of threats? And to what degree is misidentifying the appropriate narrative, which god, which ideological representation, which positive or negative archetype we are dealing with, the heart of the struggle and the nexus of where things go either very well or go terribly wrong? And to what degree is our failure to articulate or preserve or value or even understand a mature ideal as our archetype toward which we aim our transformation another large part of our struggle, and where things can go so very right or wrong?
Am I being silly? Am I casting a simple factual or ideological debate too strongly in terms of a struggle between the navigation and recognition of archetypes and the force of those archetypes as expressions or transpositions of innate biological fears, desires, or prejudices? And is there a way that talking about these subjects and understanding them in this way that can actually be useful when it comes to working out real problems and real fears and real grievances and real hopes among actual people?
As you can see, it’s much harder to explain clearly what is wrong with an argument in these terms, especially when the facts themselves that are fitted to the narrative seem true enough. Arguing the obscure and ephemeral point that it’s the framing of the discussion that’s off instead of the specific points is pretty difficult.
There certainly isn’t any lack of evidence that the patriarchy is often embodied in the form of its predatory degeneracy. That’s true enough. For someone whose concern and locus of attitude and action and experience is an experience of or confrontation with the threat of predatory masculinity, it seems to be very hard to convince them to adjust or complexify that perspective. They’ve been hurt. They want to prevent others and their future sekevs from being hurt. That’s what matters to them. That’s their focus. Why should they let themselves be distracted?
When it comes to women in particular, especially when you take into account the kind of threat that mature males present to them, and their own positive prejudices, it is very easy to see why they would prefer male children. Especially if you’re predisposed to notice the positives of males as children, and disposed to particularly notice the negative of males as adults, why would you want them to be anything else? Especially to the degree that technology and social and economic advancement has provided alternative options for the distinctive goods that adult males once contributed, why would put up with them and their inherent risks and downsides when you can to get those same goods yourself from a career or from the law or from government? Why would you need men to fill those roles anymore? Or even allow it.
And that seems to be part of the argument, that because of their propensity to fall into or be identified or perhaps even be identical with these degenerative archetypes (like the predatory male), that men should not be allowed to fulfill these masculine and patriarchal roles and functions in society. And perhaps because women have been so solidly identified with their own positive archetypes of the good mother and the helpless child (which isn’t exactly good, but whose negative aspects are conceived as being the fault of the predator who preys on them; mothers don’t blame children for being vulnerable comma, they blame the threats that endanger them; they seem to have an innate prejudice toward that, whereas fathers often seem to be more willing to lay responsibility for their vulnerability on the child themselves), because of that overidentification with their positive archetypes, they lack a robust enough idea of the dangers posed by their own archetypal degeneracies. Which is a subject I have been working on elaborating by examining myth and fiction, what the degenerate female equivalents to the male degenerate archetypes are.
I think one key to actually changing people’s minds is presenting a positive vision, actually developing and articulating the value of a positive heroic ideal of masculinity, not just pointing out the downsides of the degenerative expressions. However, people might benefit from more understanding of the dangers posed by degenerative expressions that our society is less concerned about, such as the underdeveloped and pre-pubescent masculine.
The myth of the predatory male is so dominant right now, and perhaps that is in part a reaction to an insufficient histp iCal acknowledgment of the cost being born by women of the predatory male aspect. Or perhaps it’s because the relationship between men and women has broken down so much that women no longer feel (or believe in) the protection and provision of the positive male archetype and are instinctively looking for other solutions (seeking weapons or tools of their own, to hunt or neuter the dangerous animals).
If this is part of the problem, then the levers of government (and of the economy and technology and the social structure) are essentially being wielded as a substitute for the relationship between the sexes. If this is so, then it seems to me that the only solution is to get men and women to love and value and trust one another again. But how do you do that, when the wounds are so real and so deep, when there is such a legitimate reservoir of grievances against one another, such a well of unacknowledged need and betrayal?
There have been enough sins committed by men to spend all of the rest of human history working out what they were and what damage they did and how to address them. And I’m not certain that women on their own or even women with the help of demasculinized male allies could address them, or whether this process would not actually render them even more incapable of addressing them. The only previously-evolved solution we possessed for the problem of predatory men was heroic men. Law and technology have increased that power and in some ways taken the place of men in that role, but in divesting men of the heroic role we seem to be actually creating more examples of degenerative archetypes, more wolves and more infants. And that is and excessive and increasing burden that it is not clear women will be able to shoulder alone, or at least not without great personal cost to themselves.
The burden of single motherhood comes to mind as an example. It saves you from the dangers of predatory males and undeveloped males (because who wants a wolf or another child as a spouse), but it also deprives you of the benefits of a husband and leaves a remainder of a detached, lone, free-roaming predatory or undeveloped male wandering unintegrated about in society.
I do understand why some people misunderstand and are unhappy with what you are doing with men. It is because they have not understood the real range of possible masculine archetypes and their positive and negative potential. When they see you talk to men, they don’t understand what you are doing. To my mind you are trying to scoop up these free-roaming, undeveloped males (and even some predatory males) and redirect them into positive archetypal expressions of masculinity, the heroic archetype. But to the outside eye you are simply taking children, who are at least safe, and making them dangerous. And you are failing to avoid or confront predatory males in a way that doesn’t fix or neuter them by reducing them to demasculinized males. And that’s what they see.
So what we really face is the challenge of convincing women that children really aren’t that great or desirable and that big, powerful, scary men actually are or can be desirable. And instinctively I think that’s a tough sell. Especially when adult men are cognitively mapped onto wolves and idealized men are mapped onto children, and people’s reactions carry the force of these innate biological prejudices. And the prejudices of women would be particularly strong, in part due to their proclivity for higher levels of neuroticism in response to their greater physical vulnerability, and also their proclivity toward higher agreeableness as an adaptation for infant care. They fundamentally want to like men as children and dislike men as dangerous predators.
As much as I approach a subject like this through the lens of scholarship and understanding, it really is a very personal struggle and fear for me. I am a man and a father and a husband, and I want to be a good man and a good father and a good husband. And I want to be understood and appreciated, and I do want to fight against the negative representations of masculinity. I feel that there is an innate drive in me to confront them, actually, and to confront them for the sake of my wife and children. That seems to be instinctive in me.
And then along comes a book into my own home that says that there is no heroic version of masculinity, or at least no need for it, or that masculinity is only typified by its predatory elements, and that I am also wrong in seeking to confront childishness. That I and all my kind are nothing but predators and we do nothing but abuse children by trying to make them more dangerous. And that all our confrontation of other threats is merely a hypocritical facade in the pursuit of our own arbitrary and predatory power.
That story literally tears the heart out of some of the deepest and most meaningful aspects of my identity and my efforts in life. Is such a big wound that it’s very hard to even express it, especially to my wife, whose opinion of me, including me as a man, matters so much. And it’s hard to address the complaints of the book without seeming like I’m denying or defending predatory male behavior.
Maybe that’s a trust issue. But everyone everywhere, the best and smartest men and women, are telling women and children not to trust men, that they’re toxic and predatory and hypocrites and abusers and arbitrary power brokers. And the worst of it is that we are! And criticizing the women thinkers who our wives are reading and listening to risks running afoul of the instinct toward agreeability and solidarity among women. These are the women struggling to recover from abuse by men and trying to protect women and children from abuse by men, after all. Who am I if I’m attacking them or trying to get between them?
Is this why it’s so important to have the cache of some victim identity group in order to be able to speak, why only men who are black or gay, etc, seem to be able to express their aggression? Because they can disguise themselves as non-threatening children who are only defending themselves? But for me the application of strength and aggression can only be an expression of either sexism or white supremacy or bigotry or what have you? How am I supposed to build an acceptable positive expression of masculinity under those circumstances?
I have gone on far too long on too many subjects. I hope you will forgive me. Brevity has never been my forte.
Wishing you the very best,
Mr. N